How Win-Loss Analysis Increases Revenue Growth

In this Revenue Mavericks episode, Spencer Dent explains what makes a best-in-class win-loss analysis motion, and how it can push companies towards sustainable revenue growth by making them more buyer-centric.


About this Mavericks episode

Spencer Dent is the Co-founder and Co-CEO of Clozd, and has over seven years of experience helping companies win in the competitive B2B sales landscape. He is passionate about empowering clients with insights and best practices that enable them to increase sales productivity, optimize their products and offerings, decrease new rep ramp time, enter new geographies, and align resources and investments to drive sales. Before Clozd, he led the demand generation and marketing operations team at Qualtrics.

In this episode, he shares his insights from analyzing win-loss data of companies of various sizes with different sales motions. He talks about what a best-in-class win-loss analysis process looks like and the key things to keep in mind as companies set it up. He tells us what actually makes buyers buy and how GTM teams can tweak their sales and PLG motions to drive more revenue by becoming more buyer-centric. He also debunks some common sales myths and shares key aspects of brand-building that companies can focus on to close more deals.


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Key takeaways from this episode


Win-loss analysis should be part of the company culture

The cross-functional nature of comprehensive win-loss programs means that merely having a step for analysis as part of the sales process isn’t sufficient. The company culture itself should speak to the win-loss concept so that sales, CS, marketing, product, and RevOps can work in unison and build more buyer-centric processes.


Distributing buyer feedback is as important as collecting it

Having detailed interviews with buyers and prospects to collect relevant feedback is just one part of the win-loss motion. It is equally important to have a process and rules to distribute this data in the right insight form at the right time to the right teams, so that they can be more buyer-centric in their strategies.


Overall buyer experience affects long-term revenue

Consistently giving positive buyer experiences will result in higher revenues for companies in the long run because of the power of word of mouth. Prospects are more likely to buy from you if someone they know or respect puts in a good word for you, even if the product or sales pitch falls short of their original expectations.


“The product and sales reps can cover for each other’s shortcomings”

From the data that Spencer analyzed, it is evident that a prospect will choose to buy if they believe the product is great and satisfies their needs, even if the sales rep is not that good at selling it. The other side of this also holds - even if the buyer is not that convinced by the product itself, a good sales rep can still make that sale by instilling a feeling of trust and confidence in the prospect which makes them want to work with your company.


“You don’t lose deals because of price”

Spencer believes that deals are never lost because of price, but because of a deeper underlying issue. He insists that companies need to double-check when a prospect says they did not choose their product because of the price. More often than not, it turns out to be a not-so-attractive package, or a confusing pricing agreement that puts the prospect off.

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Full transcript of this episode

[00:00:00] Aaron Janmohamed: I'm joined today by Spencer Dent, who comes to us from Clozd based out of Utah. I'm going to let Spencer introduce himself real quick. 
[00:00:13] Spencer Dent: Hey everyone. I'm Spencer, as you said, I'm one of the co founders of a company called Clozd. We run win-loss programs to help our clients, their B2B companies, mostly software companies and SaaS companies, but we help companies figure out why they win and lose sales opportunities.
[00:00:29] Spencer Dent: So we have a platform that plugs into your CRM and then, you know, We collect your information about your opportunities that are one marked as one and lost and we go out and connect with the buyers to figure out why they did or did not choose you. So learn a lot about what's going on in the macro environment right now.


[00:00:47] Aaron Janmohamed: I want to get into all of that. It's one of the things that interests me most is how do buyers behave and why do they buy? Why do they not buy? Um, so we'll, we'll try to pick your brain as much as possible. But, um, given that boost up is oriented around the RevOps function primarily, and secondarily, the sales function, that might be a mis reframing, but I'm just going to leave it at that.
[00:01:08] Aaron Janmohamed: Um, it felt relevant to talk to you, uh, because often RevOps is the owner of win-loss analysis. Yeah. And so I wanted to pick your brain about that. Why is that the case? Um, when is it that the RevOps team is engaged and why does it matter for them to be plugged into wind loss, um, uh, scenarios? 
[00:01:27] Spencer Dent: Yeah, great question.
[00:01:28] Spencer Dent: So we've been doing this about seven years and we've seen this interesting, um, kind of boomerang effect. And what I would describe it as is this seven, 10 years ago, companies would say, Hey, we need to figure out why we went and lose sales opportunities. And the immediate answer to that question, or the, the shortcut companies would take, and they thought it was accurate was, well, let's just put a dropdown in our CRM.
[00:01:56] Spencer Dent: And when reps mark a deal as won or lost. They can select why it was won or lost based off of this drop down. And then companies got more and more sophisticated with that and started asking reps more and more information at the end of sales cycles. And that was typically owned by a rev ops function because they own the sales stack and they own Salesforce.
[00:02:17] Spencer Dent: Well, companies that started. With that level of adoption of win-loss quickly came to find out that reps don't know why they win and lose. That B2B selling is like a poker game where you never actually have to lay down your cards and that buyers would leave or stop sell cycles or whatever and reps were often guessing because you forced them to guess.
[00:02:45] Spencer Dent: And they realized they couldn't trust the sales dropdowns and in particular, other functions felt like they couldn't trust the sales reported loss reasons. And so what happened started about 10 years ago, some early [00:03:00] adopters of win-loss as they go out to buyers started to occur. So, and this would often be owned by like a product marketing function.
[00:03:07] Spencer Dent: So in a lot of tech companies, you'll, you've seen product marketing teams start to own win-loss. And I would say in tech companies that function exists and other B2B companies, that function does not exist, but would own win-loss as a kind of ombudsman outside of the sales process because they were going to the buyers.
[00:03:31] Spencer Dent: Now, the boomerang effect, bringing it full circle is now you have companies like Clozd where we are a tech. Driven win-loss solution that plugs into your CRM that integrates with your call recording solution that is integrated with with slack that pushes all this feedback into, you know, a battle card solution, like a crayon and that all of those technologies and access to them is typically owned by rev ops and the systems team.
[00:03:58] Spencer Dent: And so what you're seeing is. It started out with, let's try to systematize this. Oh crap. We got to go talk to buyers and we don't have a system for doing that too. Oh wait, now there's a platform and technology to where we can systematize it. So I've seen in the last two years, a huge increase in the number of.
[00:04:17] Spencer Dent: Our clients where win-loss is being owned by the rev ops function and sponsored by sales CROs and or marketing and even the product team. But cross functionally, it's owned by that rev ops function because they are. The best at thinking systematically and they know how to do things technically that some of their other peers may not 
[00:04:42] Aaron Janmohamed: It's interesting because the evolution you described seems very similar to what I see on the marketing side when it comes to Not attribution, but understanding buying journeys And buying touch points, you know, top and middle of funnel.
[00:04:55] Aaron Janmohamed: Um, I'm almost seeing the exact same thing. We used to collect information about how somebody first hears about you when you actually talk to them, though, you get this expanded vision of what's actually happening when they first hear about you and the people that they talk to and the content that they consume and where they consume it.
[00:05:11] Aaron Janmohamed: A lot of it, which brains don't necessarily have control over, or they wouldn't have thought were part of their, their overall brain strategy, but they're now so critical to, to their success. And so it's kind of funny that we're seeing this at all aspects of, uh, you know, the GTM motion. I would like to get into some details, but it would be nice to start at the top level, you know, a good win-loss strategy.
[00:05:33] Aaron Janmohamed: What does it actually mean? Because like you said, the simplified version is you have analysis on why companies buy or don't buy, but it goes deeper than that. And when it involves rev ops, it certainly takes on a different form. So help us understand what that means. 
[00:05:47] Spencer Dent: Yeah. Great question. Um, so the first step is you're, you have your internal data and you have opportunities that are being marked as one And lost and you have metadata around the opportunities and accounts.
[00:05:59] Spencer Dent: So the first [00:06:00] thing to do is do I have a list of those ops and what's happening and go look at your, when your win rates, you don't need another, a platform like Clozd to do that. You can do that in Excel. You can do that in Tableau, whatever. What good. There's a maturity curve that happens with companies as they adopt win-loss.
[00:06:15] Spencer Dent: The first is they're not doing anything. The second is they say, let's go ask our sales team. The third step up that ladder is they say, wait a second, we don't know what's going on really. Our sales team doesn't have good, good access to it. Let's get a tiger team together and go do some type of a project where we go talk to buyers or survey buyers.
[00:06:35] Spencer Dent: And we come up with some answers. We go, we go read all the gong calls. We go do all sorts of things to try to. Tackle this as like a one off project companies that do that realize, holy crap. This is super valuable. We should be doing this in an ongoing way and let's have it be owned by one function. And then companies that do that realize, wait, this is more than one function.
[00:06:58] Spencer Dent: It should be cross functional and they move to an ongoing cross functional program. So best in class win-loss looks like this. As deals get marked as one and lost in your CRM. And when I say deals, this is an important thing to clarify here is it's not just new deals. It's also existing customers that churn or expand or renew at the status quo, understanding at decision touch points where dollars are tied.
[00:07:22] Spencer Dent: Why are you getting money or not getting money, but systematically tracking those. And kicking off the feedback loop with the buyer to figure out why they do and don't choose you. And if you do that systematically, you will collect a lot of data from buyers. Not every buyer will participate, but you'll be able to see for specific deals and across deals, why people are choosing you and not choosing you.
[00:07:50] Spencer Dent: An important thing that I would point out there is sometimes people hear this and they're like, Oh, so you want me to survey all the buyers? Or sometimes other people are like, Oh, so you want to go interview and talk to all the buyers. It kind of depends on the nature of your deals and what you sell. So if I was an enterprise, enterprise company, right, that's an abuse term in the go to market world.
[00:08:14] Spencer Dent: If I was an enterprise company, meaning I'm selling meaningful deal sizes. So call it 40, 000 plus my sales cycle is more than two phone calls. And there's multiple people involved on the other side. And I have a decision committee, potentially I'm doing RFPs, whatever it takes. In those situations, you probably want to interview the person because it would feel kind of awkward after spending six months or a year trying to sell a deal to have, to send somebody a survey and be like, fill out this worksheet.
[00:08:46] Spencer Dent: Right. The opposite's true too, right? If I talked to somebody twice. And they bought, they gave me their credit card and they move forward. It'd be really weird to be like, can we talk for 30 minutes about why you chose us when we only talked for [00:09:00] 30 minutes already. And in that case, it makes more sense to do like a survey.
[00:09:04] Spencer Dent: There's an interesting kind of Goldilocks opportunity in the middle, which is we have, we offer a solution that's called flex interviews additionally. So think of that as like an asynchronous interview where like you've recorded yourself asking five questions and then the buyer can record themselves.
[00:09:21] Spencer Dent: Like kind of like the app Marco Polo and you can, you can answer back and forth there. Another cool thing that's coming. On the horizon, that's going to be sweet is AI bots that can do the interviews on your behalf. Right? So like it's, it can have an interactive station with you and you can cover a lot more, a lot more deals.
[00:09:41] Spencer Dent: But going back to your original question, that's what a great win-loss program looks like. It's systematically going out and collecting feedback from buyers as deals get closed. And then you push that feedback straight to the people in your organization, right? You don't just create this mountain of qualitative data.
[00:09:59] Spencer Dent: You push it out to the people in your organization so that they can immediately understand what's happening on the front line with buyers. 
[00:10:06] Aaron Janmohamed: With I know there are more segments, but to simplify the conversation, you know, you have transactional sales and more complex sales environments between the two. Do you see a distinction in why some buyers buy and why some buyers don't, or are the reasons somewhat the same?
[00:10:23] Aaron Janmohamed: And what are some of those reasons? 
[00:10:25] Spencer Dent: Yeah, good question. Always. Right. I mean, we have clients like Like DocuSign and Lucid that are like PLG led motions that have nailed this motion of like come sign up on my website and get 50 people in Oregon or on my product. And then we go elevate you to an enterprise agreement.
[00:10:48] Spencer Dent: Like some companies have crushed it on that motion. We have other clients that are selling 5 million average deal sizes. And it's an 18 month sales cycle. Um, so when you ask me what's similar across those, here's what's always happening, no matter what. You're always being evaluated as to what is your product or service do, and does it meet my need?
[00:11:18] Spencer Dent: Right. So customers, whether they're buying a point and click solution online with a credit card or a super expensive ERP solution are always, they're always looking at their needs and breaking down their needs and saying, do you meet my need or not? Like now, some of those, those, that list of needs can be three things on the low end.
[00:11:42] Spencer Dent: 500 things on the high end. So you have to have product market fit. Yeah. That's like motherhood and apple pie. Everybody knows that everybody believes that, but not everybody religiously drives their solution to make sure that they're constantly meeting them, their buyer in terms of [00:12:00] their needs. 
[00:12:01] Aaron Janmohamed: do you, just for clarification, you're saying that the biggest reason, regardless of the motion that you're running is.
[00:12:07] Aaron Janmohamed: If you fail at product market fit, no matter how good the seller was or how good the experience was, it really comes down first and foremost. And have you presented the case strong enough that the solution, the benefits meet the pain that I'm trying to solve for, and that's, that's really not 
[00:12:23] Spencer Dent: my problem, right?
[00:12:23] Spencer Dent: Like reps, you know, for better or for worse, we'll take credit whenever they win and whenever they lose, they will say it's not their fault. Well, sometimes they do lose, even though they're awesome at their job. Yeah. Yeah, because like, you're not going to buy something you don't need in an organization like as good as the seller is, if you don't feel like there's a compelling need for that solution, you aren't going to buy it.
[00:12:50] Spencer Dent: And we see this in our data right like I could, I could go and I could show you across all of our clients. When somebody doesn't buy you it's very rare that They said the product was amazing and the product could do everything they wanted it to do But the sales rep just wasn't good They will overlook the sales rep if your product is that good because they want the product and the and the outcome the product Can provide at the same time if your product's a little bit off And the sales person's amazing.
[00:13:25] Spencer Dent: They can overcome some of the miss misalignment because they, the buyer does feel like I want to work with this person. I want this solution to work. And they can make, they can end up making excuses. The death nail is the product doesn't exactly do what they need. And the sales rep doesn't listen, doesn't know what they're talking about.
[00:13:49] Spencer Dent: Doesn't work well with the, with the buyer. And then it's like, you're wasting my time. 
[00:13:54] Aaron Janmohamed: You know? Yeah, that makes that makes perfect sense Um before we move off this topic because this is probably the most interesting component. Okay product market fit critical What are some other? I don't know if you call them intangibles But other factors that go into deals one or deals loss that that are notable that people can take action on.
[00:14:14] Spencer Dent: Yeah, great Here's a couple of things. Maybe here's some myths myth. You don't lose because of price It's the number one thing everybody always blames They say we lost because of price. You don't lose because of price you lose. You have to always double and triple click into that question. If a buyer tells you they lost, they didn't choose you because of price.
[00:14:39] Spencer Dent: Sometimes that means that your pricing model didn't make sense for them. Even though the dollar amount was less, they're afraid that over time it's going to grow and get out of control. Sometimes price means. Other things around you're selling me stuff that I didn't really need. And what I [00:15:00] really needed, it's more about like what was being packaged up and sold to you.
[00:15:03] Spencer Dent: Like I didn't really need this piece. Other times you're losing, you'll hear I lost on price to a competitor and it's because the competitor put more in the bundle, they might've even charged you more, but they put more in the bundle and they were more flexible with what they, what they add in there. So.
[00:15:23] Spencer Dent: Be careful when you hear price. Sales reps, if I'm a seller, two things always come up for people as to why you, what helps you win a deal or lose a deal. How well do you actually listen and really understand the customer, really understand what their needs are, really understand their business and what their challenges are, really understand their situation and sell to that.
[00:15:48] Spencer Dent: I can't tell you the number of times that I've heard buyers and that, I mean, we've heard it Clozd. The buyer listened. And they understood. And I've just felt like they were part of our time and how many times we've heard. It's like, I told them everything to say, I told them everything that they needed to present.
[00:16:05] Spencer Dent: And they showed up and did like a generic demo. And it embarrassed me in front of my leader. And we just went with the other solution because they did a better job. So you have to listen and you have to know your stuff. Like here's an interest. Here's an interesting factor. If you're, if you're selling at a company that is less than 10 years old, Your buyers will be way more forgiving of you for not knowing your stuff because guess what they probably don't know Either does that make sense?
[00:16:38] Spencer Dent: Like if you're selling something novel and new Buyers are way more forgiving because it's like the first time they're seeing it and they're their eyes are kind of open and they're You're teaching them something. They don't know if you're selling a solution. That's like A long-term legacy solution.
[00:16:54] Spencer Dent: That's been around for a long time. You better know your stuff because if not your buyer, there's a lot of cases where the buyer might know your product better than you do, or they might know your competitor's product because they've used it for a long time. So they're going to poke holes. Left, right, and center.
[00:17:14] Spencer Dent: And, and they expect a lot because they're experts on it. So the more mature your industry is, the more sophisticated you need to be in knowing your solution and knowing like what it does specifically and how it compares because buyers are much more prone to call BS on you on more mature. It's obvious, right.
[00:17:34] Spencer Dent: On more mature solution. So that's another thing. If I'm a seller, listen really well and know your stuff, especially if you're in a mature space. Cause if you're, if you're not. You're going to get torn apart. 
[00:17:47] Aaron Janmohamed: I'm curious if in your meta research, the metadata that you've collected, you've observed people's responses over 7 plus years.
[00:17:57] Aaron Janmohamed: How often does the overall brand [00:18:00] experience come into play in in in their decisioning? And what I mean by that is, okay, there there's the quality of the seller, but then there's also. All of the things that go into enabling them to make a buying decision, the touch points that they have, the interactions they have at the executive level, the product tour they're able to see.
[00:18:17] Aaron Janmohamed: I mean, there's a lot of things outside of the sales rep that they can't necessarily control that are an important factor in the experience. So what would you say about that? 
[00:18:26] Spencer Dent: Comes into play all the time. Most often it comes into play this way. It's not like, Oh, I looked at your website and it had cool colors on it.
[00:18:36] Spencer Dent: It's it's things like this. We used you at my last company and I had a great experience or we used you at my last company and we had a horrible experience or we had a new CMO come in. And they use your solution and, or they used the competitor solution and they just forced us to do it. So giving people great experiences with your solutions today have perpetual benefit down the road when they go, when they change jobs or go back out to market or whatever.
[00:19:14] Spencer Dent: So you don't ever forget that because so much of people think about branding is what does your logo look like? What are your colors look like? What, what types of case studies do you have? And oftentimes it's what experience has this person had or people they know had. That's the other thing that happens is, well, my, my best friend that also does this for this company had started using you guys six months ago and told me how great it was.
[00:19:38] Spencer Dent: So I had to try it out. 
[00:19:40] Aaron Janmohamed: Yeah. 
[00:19:40] Spencer Dent: You hear that the word of mouth stuff is the most powerful. So the more you can really, really strong, build really strong advocates of your solutions. That's the most powerful thing you can do for your brand. Now, on top of that, depending upon what you're selling, here's other things that come into play.
[00:20:02] Spencer Dent: Public case studies, public, like what companies are willing to stand alongside you and talk about the value that you've done. You know, things like, you know, the Gartners of the world are matter in more mature markets. The G2 crowds of the world matter as well. So you can go look and see what else is out there.
[00:20:23] Spencer Dent: But ultimately what will swing somebody is someone I know and trust or respect is telling me that this is the right thing to do. And so I'm going to do it. And, um, I, that, that can kind of overcome everything that can overcome a bad sales experience that can overcome potentially a botched demo. Like at the end of the day, when some, when you have someone who can.
[00:20:54] Spencer Dent: Who's used you before and or they know someone that's used to you before that will [00:21:00] jump. Yeah 
[00:21:03] Aaron Janmohamed: I want to bring this now back to um, our our rev ops audience and you had given a a fairly clear I guess phased approach to maturing your your win-loss strategy But if you're an ops and maybe you're not at the phase that you want to be and you want to look like a hero I mean there have got to be some actionable things you can do right now to start embracing this because You You know the ops people that we work with Um, like every function I guess you could say very busy.
[00:21:32] Aaron Janmohamed: I mean, they're doing forecasting they're working systems issues They're evaluating sales strategy go to market plans territory plans account plans. They're working with sales in some ways They're doing a lot of enabling. I mean the amount that that goes into an operational team is It's pretty incredible.
[00:21:49] Aaron Janmohamed: And as a consequence, they have to be very sharp individuals, but taking action on a strategy. I mean, one of the first several steps that you need to make sure that you have in place in order to be successful. 
[00:22:00] Spencer Dent: Yeah, really good question. I would, I would say where these programs, this, this is what not to do where these programs go to die isn't start and stop motions.
[00:22:11] Spencer Dent: What I mean by that is like, yeah, let's just go get like 10 pieces of feedback and then we'll figure out what to do The way you get value out of win-loss is you have to just say this is the final step in our sales process Every time a deal gets marked as won or lost we're either going to ask the buyer via a survey Or via a video interview or through an actual live interview, we're going to ask them why they did or didn't choose us.
[00:22:37] Spencer Dent: And if you just make that a cultural standpoint, like this is who we are. We care about game film. We watch our game film, right? We're not a sports team that just, you know, we, we win or lose a game. And then we never think about what happened. We want that feedback loop. So make that part of your process culturally.
[00:22:56] Spencer Dent: You do that. That's number one. Number two, the other thing that I would tell you to do is, and you can use technology to enable this, but you really, really want the feedback to be trans as transparent as possible. The value here, you can go to our, go to our website. We have the state of win-loss document.
[00:23:19] Spencer Dent: That's that is based off of a survey of hundreds of companies, Clozd customers, and not Clozd customers that are doing a win-loss to see kind of the value they get. The number one driver of value outside of collecting the feedback in the first place is how broadly do you share it in your organization, because.
[00:23:37] Spencer Dent: This is what happens. You go get win-loss feedback and you learn stuff about your product. You learn stuff about your pricing. You learn stuff about marketing. You learn stuff about all this, all these things. And if that just sits in Salesforce and no one ever looks at it, or if that just sits on a platform like Clozd and no one ever sees it, you don't get any value from it, where you get value is by putting that information in the hands of the people in your [00:24:00] organization that are responsible for the outcome.
[00:24:04] Spencer Dent: And allowing them to do things about it. So the worst thing you could do is this one of the dumbest things that RevOps teams do when they go to implement win-loss is they only talk about it once every quarter at a QBR instead of this feedback's coming through and we're pushing it out to people so that if I'm the head of product and I keep hearing that our API with whatever company sucks and is a reason why we keep losing deals.
[00:24:29] Spencer Dent: Well, I would like to know that right now so that I can put it in the roadmap so that it's fixed as soon as possible. So we can start winning. And if you want to jump ahead of any priority list, you say, here's how much, how many dollars we're losing because this thing's missing. If I'm the head of marketing and I keep hearing from all of our healthcare customers that we're trying to sell to that they don't really see any case studies about why.
[00:24:54] Spencer Dent: We're the, why we're the right solution. I know priority number one, let's go find one of our healthcare customers to do a case study with us. And so I can go do that right now. I don't have to wait three months and then it's another three months. So now we're six months away. From getting information that will move the needle on our win rate if we had it right now.
[00:25:14] Spencer Dent: So two mistakes. They don't systematize it and make it part of the culture that we want this feedback. And then they don't share it broadly so that the company is so that the rest of the org can help lift the sales team. Because most of the time, sometimes people think it's like a witch hunt for sales teams.
[00:25:32] Spencer Dent: I don't know if you like, if you've ever tried to put one of these in place, right? What ends up happening is most of the time the sales team gets praised by the buyers. about how easy they were to work with. They get told that they were, um, they get, they get good feedback. And if there are things to work on, it's very constructive.
[00:25:54] Spencer Dent: And a lot of what the feedback they get that's missing is stuff around product market fit. Your product couldn't do these things, or your pricing didn't do this for me, or your, um, I was missing these functions, these functions, or your competitors have this thing that would be nice if you had it. And so that just helps the sales team get the ammo.
[00:26:18] Spencer Dent: They need to get the rest of the org to rally on them so they can go win more. 
[00:26:23] Aaron Janmohamed: Um, what's the most effective way to do that? Because I've, I've been in sales. I, you know, I carried a bag for 10 plus years and I remember seeing those little live wire updates on deals. Ignoring him almost because it was like too much.
[00:26:37] Aaron Janmohamed: Like there's too much information or I'm seeing it too frequently. So have you seen a, one of your customers do this in a way that actually created what you call that culture that allowed this information to thrive? 
[00:26:48] Spencer Dent: Yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you two examples. One of our first customers, awesome guy.
[00:26:53] Spencer Dent: Uh, he was the VP of product marketing at a company called Avalara. Avalara is still a customer of, of Clozd Today. [00:27:00] And they had a ton of success with, with Clozd and with win-loss. And one of the things that he said to, I asked, I just asked him, I said, what, what's been like the secret sauce for you? And he said, we don't hide any of this.
[00:27:15] Spencer Dent: We don't stand like we'll give access to whoever wants it. And we just believe that we need to have a culture of humility and that we need to figure out what we need to do better. And if we do that, we'll be successful. And so unlimited access, that's one of the things that one of the philosophies we have with our product is we don't actually charge a per user seat.
[00:27:39] Spencer Dent: We let our clients share it as broadly as they want. So that's the first thing I would tell you. Now, the second thing I would tell you is. If your company doesn't have a culture that's ready for this. Then you have to create a path to get your company ready for it. 
[00:27:58] Aaron Janmohamed: So yeah. How would you define that? How would you define not being ready and what does that path look like?
[00:28:03] Spencer Dent: Really defensive, right? Yeah. Like cherry picking deals. I don't want you to talk to this one. I don't want you to talk to that one. So, so it starts with it's Or, or, I don't want you to share this or. You know, pushing back super hard on any of the feedback. The best thing you can do in that case is to start slow, go get a handful of deals and feedback on a handful of deals and share it with senior people and let those senior people see the value of what they're, of what they're hearing.
[00:28:35] Spencer Dent: Then share it with, share that same feedback with the next layer down and go add to it. And scoped out your org is, Use role based access controls and a platform like Clozd so that not everybody can see everything because, you know, for example, if if 1 of our clients has 60, 000 sellers. 60 sales team of 60, 000 people, right?
[00:29:00] Spencer Dent: I don't think you can trust all 60, 000 of those people to act as good citizens. With this data, because this information is. It can be weaponized, right? You can totally go and be like, look at how bad this rep sucked on this deal. And look at how stupid this was. And so if your org is very complex or has other things, that's one reason why technology can make win-loss really useful is you can make it so that.
[00:29:27] Spencer Dent: People get access to the stuff that's relevant to them and not to others. Um, and then one other thing I tell you, Aaron, that's actually awesome that I've seen clients do like a, here's a secret sauce. People like win-loss because it is like, it's visceral. It's like, man, let's go look at like the, let's go look under the hood at the really nasty stuff that happens.
[00:29:49] Spencer Dent: And that's what people think about. The other thing that happens when you do it is you actually, there's a lot of really awesome things you learn about your organization. And. [00:30:00] That you take for granted when you're in the trenches, building a company, you learn what customers love about your products. You learn what your sales team does.
[00:30:08] Spencer Dent: That is outstanding. You learn about like use cases for why customers are expanding. In using your solution. That is awesome. And one thing that I've seen companies that get a lot of value out of, out of close and out of wind loss too, is they focus as much on the positive as they do on the things that they can go and prove, and when they do that, it's like highlight after highlight of, of.
[00:30:37] Spencer Dent: The sale, the sales team win channel becomes so much more powerful when it's, this is what the customer said about what the sales team did to win their deal. This is what the customer said about the product, the product team at your organization, hearing customers talk about how great your product is, is so motivating and so inspiring.
[00:30:59] Spencer Dent: And the more you use it that way too positively, that will also help your culture adopt it. and drive towards it as like a long term operational muscle that your organization needs. 
[00:31:13] Aaron Janmohamed: Well, that that seems like the perfect natural end note for the conversation. Spencer, thank you so much for your insights.
[00:31:19] Aaron Janmohamed: I would encourage anyone listening to this to go download the report. What was the name of the report? You said 
[00:31:24] Spencer Dent: it's called the state of wind loss. If you just go to our website, C. L. O. Z. D. dot com. You can check it out there. You can also see. We have a lot of content on there about like the state of win-loss, best practices, case studies, things for people that are interested in learning more about it.
[00:31:41] Aaron Janmohamed: Love it. Well, thank you so much, Spencer. This has been awesome. Appreciate it, man.